A thought

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A thought

Postby Kex » Sun Aug 24, 2008 10:31 pm

Hi, I havent been on this forum in a LONG time, to be honest i cant quite get the same communication through on forums as i can in person, but alas, i have no other port of call for this shit in my head.

Quite simply i've been thinking about god and how i believe


NOOOO NOT ANOTHER THREAD OMG U FUKIN L4MORZZZ I IZ GONNA MURDERZ U!!!!!!!1111ONEone

WAIT!!!! yes i have been on this site and seen the countless topics of religion, especially before the crash, but to me its more than religion, and i try to explain... so... please read if you have any interest in this kind of stuff.


For i do not believe in god in the way of Christianity or other such abraham orienated religions, i think the idea is somewhat perposterous and to teach it is on par with teaching ancient mythology, well thats abit harsh, But to teach this as FACT is probably the most idiotic thing humanity could do to itself. To waste time reteaching the same point over and over again without being allowed individual thought on anything, brainwashed into being good, not for the reason of being good, not because we want to be good, but because we HAVE to be, or god will smite us.

No, the evolution of humanity should not and cannot be bogged down by ancient teachings that tell us we inherrited the ability to be good and bad from god ( the all knowing big brother in the sky )

For i think good is inherent in all socially living things ( as is being bad ) for every social creature knows the difference between right and wrong inherently, as we discover what is 'good' and 'bad' through our actions and the reactions we get back from our natural surroundings.

This, i think, most people understand.

Now onto god in more detail.

1.
Now as i stated before i do not believe in god in the way of a supreme ruler/invisible man/lives in heaven/will kick my ass if im bad god ( I'l call this god 'BIG G' for future reference ) so i'l try to break it down.

"If There Were No God, It Would Be Necessary To Invent Him." - Voltaire

I agree. So in my head i see god as nothing more than an invention, but an invention for what?

Now it gets tricky, because heres where my head had to fill in some gaps and this is purely my personal ideas and beliefs, so here we go.

In ancient times when the brain of man ( women aswell, i mean as a race in whole feminists!!!!!!! ) was less developed, and we where constantly trying to get along for the sake of survival and creating better living , we needed rules, boundaries and general guidelines for how to get along, like ancient laws, ideas which now have become inherent to our society as time has passed as these basic principles have continued to work as proof as we are still here, progressing.

Our ancestors however would not understand our nature as we do, our complex behaviours towards each other, simply, why we act like we do. Their natural urges would have driven them much more than ours do today, and i believe they would need reasons for the things they did and the reasons they existed. This, i believe, is god, the all powerfull creator of all, and heaven, the ultimate prize for the one who follows. Ideas created by much less developed mentalities.

Then god is merely an invention of our mind, the idea of perfection, the perfect being which we strive to be like, and even in everyday occurences, between people who do not believe in god 'BIG G' at all, they still strive to perfect themselves.

To become all powerfull- To control the very essence of the universe itself, to split the atom for instance would be a godlike power to ancient peoples, but even just to become powerfull in society, through money etc.

To become omniscience - We strive for this constantly, individualy and as a whole, the knowledge we hold becoming unprecedented continually with every new finding, including the seeking of knowledge of the past and future.

To become omnipotent - Harder to believe but we do, we are always looking out for the next person to love unconditionally. Although the human minds ability for destruction seems unparralleled, it is, only by the human minds ability to 'love', and i believe most people who have been in love, could agree that it can be a much more powerfull tool than hate.

The one remaining, Omnipresence, i will talk about further down.


So in my head ive come to the conclusion that god is connected more to our conceptual framework of perfection, then it is by our past and our creation.

2.
Now people may well find it depressing that we have no divine purpose, or we are not part of some supreme powers ultimate plan, however i do not. Some may find it hard to believe that a complex system like our world, including the animals which help maintain it, in its ever lasting circle of life was not designed by a being with thought and power unattainable by the common man, however i do not.

I believe that we come from something much more important, much closer to our being than a divine creator, for i believe that not believing in good old 'BIG G' creates many more oppertunities and shows alot more promise.

I try to explain.

If we were not created by 'BIG G' then where do we come from?

Science, our creation we use to grant us omniSCIENCE ( simple no? ) tells us of our ties to nature, becoming ever more complex since our evolution from ape, and before, right down to the single cells which can still be broken down further, to the very essence of the universe itself.

If these theories of evolution are real, and we do truely accept our links to the simplist of forms of nature, then what are we?

We are then, natural inteligence, our conscience ( whats with this word science linking stuff up!!! ) is in a way the essence of nature, and that link can never be broken as long as we continue to be made of this universe.

So if we are the essence of nature, ( nature being more than just the life on our planet, but of everything within the universe ) then everything is truely connected and us to it, not by 'BIG G', no, but by everything within the boundaries of our reality that make up our universe. If this is the case, then our ability to learn and control the universe is only limited by the boundaries of reality itself.

If this is true, as i believe it to be, then we truely have a long way to go, and alot more to learn. Evolution of the mind will open up new doorways beyond our current comprehension for millions of years to come, as we, the essence of nature continue to strive for perfection, continue to strive to become god. Not god 'BIG G', but god, perfection.

To do so however means we must be in equilibrium with nature. we must put asside our more primitive mentality which nature uses in its most simplist form, survival, and rise above.

This equilbrium for our transendence to perfection must be, for we cannot have one omni without the other, this creates an unbalance between our natural intelligence, our essence, and must be rebalanced and started over, in our case, self extermination, to put it bluntly, war.

This balance then, shows us that we truely are one, and must work together as one conscience in order to transend beyond our current limitations. We use technology to do so, the most important tool we will use to become Omnipresent, to be everywhere at once.

We found maths on our quest to find knowledge, just as we have and will use new age technology to become omniscience and omnipresent, and hell! even omnipotent ( online dating anyone? )

This technology is just one example of our ability to control pure energy, just as our idea of perfection, god, IS pure energy, eventually, we will be to.

For the world, and the universe, cannot be inherited by one man, no, it will be inherited by us all ( and maybe the animals to once they get to our same level, not sure how likely that is though, dont know to much about how that would work :P ) because we are natures conscience not you, not me, but WE, and no biological being has the ability of perfection on their own.
One conscience can do it, and i believe we will have to use technology, energy, to unite as one.


3.
This i believe is what the bible, and other such religious ideas come from, the differences being in the slight different reactions we have had with each other in the trillions of different actions and reactions throughout the seperate religious groups in the world that have been.

This ancient type of mythology to me seems like a more basic attempt to figure this out, however it now holds our more complex understanding of our universe back, as the preachers and teachers of these writings centuries ago ( to me they seem more like ancient philosophers, psychologists and scientists ) could not comprehend the future that we can see now.

Although i must admit ( however much i dont want to ) that organised religion was vital to our survival back then and the start of our evolution to perfection, as the basic teachings kept alot of us from wiping ourselves out and still do today, helping maintain equilibrium, we know the teachings of good and bad, right and wrong, and although the lines maybe blurry, we will strive to do whats right as we always have.

The difference now being we have the knowledge of history, we know of the true tradgedy that unbalancing the equilibrium can cause, we know we must work together.


Although it did not work completely ( many of the different religions fundamental teachings becoming basis for many wars and deaths ) the most basic ideas are there throughout all the religions.


Thats it, thats my idea of what its all about. I hope you enjoyed it and hope it mighta made you think abit, thankyou for reading.



GRRRR IVE WANTED TO GET ALL THIS SHIT OUT FOR AGES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Postby Satanacia » Sun Aug 24, 2008 11:10 pm

Welcome back! ^^
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Postby S. [Burned] Y. » Sun Aug 24, 2008 11:36 pm

What's funny is, I was going through some of the members on the forum and I just so happen to see your name and think something about it.

As for this topic, I have no doubt it will be trashed.

But, for all of it's worth, it sounds like you have found a way to...wrap your head around religion and many of it's fwoobles (is that how you spell it?). A much easier way to say it, in my opinion, is "As long as you believe in something, and live a good life in your self opinion, then that is all you need."
For all we know humans are just weapons created by the world.
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Postby Kex » Mon Aug 25, 2008 12:00 am

Ty, glad to be back ^^

can always count on this forum to flush the shit outa my brain, not saying this place is a toilet or anything :D

Not many names seem familiar, but then again it was a LONG time ago nd ther'l be lots of new peeps, or you've all got new alias' just to confuse me, or you've all gone back to reality SHAME ON YOU REALITY GO'ERS!

Yer your probably right, just tryna fill up holes in my head, or the holes i see in other peoples :lol:



"As long as you believe in something, and live a good life in your self opinion, then that is all you need."
i like it! you steal it from somewhere?



What's funny is, I was going through some of the members on the forum and I just so happen to see your name and think something about it.
?

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Postby S. [Burned] Y. » Mon Aug 25, 2008 12:08 am

No, I didn't steal it, but it did take of some time to word it correctly. Go ahead and take it if you like.

Your name is similar to another person that posts here, named Kez.
For all we know humans are just weapons created by the world.

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Postby dickwad » Mon Aug 25, 2008 3:19 am

i tl;dr'd it and if it was some n00b i would probably trash it without a second thought, but honestly i don't have the heart to trash something that it seems you put a lot of effort into typing out, and something you've been wanting to get off your chest for a while. i'm going to leave it, for now, but if/when it dissolves into a heated debate on the subject, it'll be gone.

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Postby dickwad » Mon Aug 25, 2008 3:20 am

S. [Burned] Y. wrote:No, I didn't steal it, but it did take of some time to word it correctly. Go ahead and take it if you like.

Your name is similar to another person that posts here, named Kez.


i actually confuse the two a lot, especially because they're both from england.

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Postby Elen Sila » Mon Aug 25, 2008 5:41 am

Burned wrote:As for this topic, I have no doubt it will be trashed.


Wayne wrote:but if/when it dissolves into a heated debate on the subject, it'll be gone.


I don't get why you guys are so pessimistic about this. I've only seen a few religious topics, and though a few of them were trashed, they were never trashed for reasons pertaining to actual religious debate. They were always trashed because the discussion got off track and the participants started arguing about something else.

There was one religious topic during my time here that I specifically remember not to have been trashed. It was one of my own threads, entitled The Spirit. In it, I proposed that the human spirit does not exist, and that God, if existing, has no plan or moral code for us.

As long as we are going to be discussing religious tenets, I'd like to reintroduce the four points I made.

YOU CAN IGNORE THESE, IF YOU DO NOT FEEL THEY ARE PERTINENT TO THE TOPIC

1. WHY DON'T INORGANIC OBJECTS HAVE SPIRITS?

I wrote:Human beings are, essentially, objects made of complex carbon-based molecules and organized into segments called cells, which keep each other intact through the performance of mutual chemical functions.

How does this differentiate living organisms such as human beings from less complex objects, such as rocks or clouds, on a subatomic level, the only level at which crossover between a physical and a spiritual plane of existence could possibly be registrable?


2. WHY DON'T DEAD ORGANISMS HAVE SPIRITS?

I wrote:When a human being dies, that is, when a significant inconsistency emerges in the balance of the mutual chemical functions of the totality of the cells, to the point at which the cells of the central nervous system cease to function and the object can no longer support itself on a macroscopic scale, the chemical composition of the object, for the most part, does not immediately change. Although the cells are "dead," in the standard terminology of medicine, they still have the same chemical makeup.

Elaborating from Question 1, and possibly inconveniencing any suitable answer thereto, what differentiates a functioning cell from a "dead" cell on the subatomic level, considering that its chemical composition has not yet been altered to any great extent?


3. WHY DO LIVING THINGS EVEN NEED SPIRITS?

I wrote:The human organism is complete. Its central nervous system is functioning. It is capable of maintaining homeostasis. If the alleged spirit of this organism were subtracted through some divine or spiritual process, would the organism continue to survive? If not, why not?


4. CAN THE SPIRIT BE HELD MORALLY ACCOUNTABLE?

I wrote:Every decision you make, and every thought or emotion you experience, can be directly explained by the way your brain functions. If your brain were to function in a different way, or if it were to function in the same way but to receive a different set of input memories and experiences, most likely a great deal of your decisions, thoughts, and emotions would be different, even though your soul were the same.

If this is the case, then to what extent is the spirit involved in the conscious and unconscious processes of the brain, and at what point is the spirit no longer involved?

If the degree of control which the spirit exerts over the will of the individual is limited in any way, can the individual even be held accountable for his or her actions at all?

Although it may seem as if certain actions might be inarguably attributable to the will of the mind, and that others might be indubitably under the control of the spirit, it may not be so black and white; sometimes, a person may not be sure of whether to do something, and may make his or her decision only by a small margin of decisiveness. If this is the case, then can any human responsibility be placed upon the spirit, assuming that the spirit exists, and is at all involved in the cognitive processes?
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Postby ƒrosty » Mon Aug 25, 2008 5:54 am

I just respond that just because it doesn't make sense to you does not render it impossible.
More accurately, what it seems like you're trying to say is "Contemporary views of the spirit are illogical".

I don't know about the spirit either way, and you ought to admit the same. As it stands, "spirit" cannot be measured or isolated. The very idea of the spiritual realm seems to preclude our living logic.

It just goes back to my opinion on God; it's just as presumptuous to say there isn't a God as it is to say there is one.
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Postby Elen Sila » Mon Aug 25, 2008 6:17 am

Meh. I don't think there's a god. I really don't. And I'm not entirely sure if it could be considered "presumptuous" for me to believe so. When you look at it, it's a hell of a lot less presumptuous than saying there is one.

Sure, there might be some bizarre spiritual plane, some sort of alternate meta-existential energy field out there which constructed the universe and which set everything into motion.... But could you even call that a "god"? Even an alternate meta-existential energy field would have to follow some laws, and make at least some scientific sense. In order for it really to be a "god," it has literally to defy the laws of nature and physics! It can't just operate using a different set of laws; it actually has to defy all conventions of possibility. I say, "I don't think so."

And I don't call that presumption. But you may feel differently.
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Postby ardizt » Mon Aug 25, 2008 9:30 am

My mother taught me to believe in God, even if I'd say I dont believe, I can't stop believing because I was raised this way. Also, I respect her alot and dont want to disappoint her so that affects it a lot too. It doesn't mean you have to try to scientifically and logically (<- is that even a word :D? ) understand God and religion in general. It's just waste of time, just help your fellow man when he needs you, and he will help you when you need it. Live your life and in the end you'll see what happens. It's no use to worry about it now, you are still young so make sure you dont waste your life worrying about if God exists or not.

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Postby Satanacia » Mon Aug 25, 2008 10:41 am

That is very inspiring Ardizt. I know what you mean because I am also raised that way. I went to Christian school since kindergarten until college and taught all the existence of God and shits. Now, I don't care if I believe it or not I just want to live my life the way I want it to be. :)
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Postby Cifer » Mon Aug 25, 2008 1:05 pm

I agree with Ardizt. It's all karma. Don't hurt other people, and they won't hurt you. God may exsist, but I think Voluntary once said ; "I don't beleive in God, but I'm spiritual enough to think that I'll get into heaven." -Or something like that.
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Postby sombra_cristalina » Mon Aug 25, 2008 1:57 pm

I think the artist Smog has the best answer for the god issue in his song I Feel Like the Mother of the World:

Whether or not there is any type of god
I'm not supposed to say
And today
I don't really care

God is a word
And the argument ends there


And as for religion in general, I am not a religious person and I'm pretty sure I don't believe in God. However, religion can be a beautiful thing, and can really help people, and create a sense of community and value in one's self. However, that is only is it is used correctly.

@Ardy: You're right, logically is a word.

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Postby Kex » Mon Aug 25, 2008 2:47 pm

Sorry if im typing to much per post, flame my ass if i am.

OOO i love all this type of philosophising, I cant get a discussion like this out of anyone around me
Sajiru wrote:Don't hurt other people, and they won't hurt you.


I love the idea, but surely not. Not everyone gets whats coming to them, good or bad, there is alot of unjustice ( not within societies laws, but as karma ) in the world. The idea of karma i think does work, however im sure that many can think of many examples of completely/mostly unfair scenarios people get put into/get themselves into.
Thats one of those things i think were constantly trying to strive towards, ultimate fairness ( the way i see karma ) as part of the omnipotentness.

Yeah i went to a christian school aswell, but i slowly started to reject the ideas they where constantly barraging my head with, although i must admit that they did chill out on the MEGAULTIMA BIBLE BASHING and students where given more choice on how much they believed, and if they did, how much 'worship' they did was up to them. Still had to do religious education tho, i was gutted, like 2 marks of an A* :(

Lionboy wrote: When you look at it, it's a hell of a lot less presumptuous than saying there is one.

I wouldnt say its prosumtuous either way if you've put all your logical thinking into figuring it out, and you find a way either way. What is prosumtuous is to say THERE IS A GOD, because youve been told to say it, and vice versa with not believing.


Frosty wrote: I don't know about the spirit either way, and you ought to admit the same. As it stands, "spirit" cannot be measured or isolated. The very idea of the spiritual realm seems to preclude our living logic.


I have admitted i do not know what the spirit is, i dont claim my unstopable rambling at the top to be FACT, but what im trying to do is figure it out, and although you can say you dont know and the idea is beyond our comprehension, i say so have many things in our past, the ability to control energy would have been beyond our comprehension at some point, but slowly people have learned to understand, and surely it can be the same for anything within our realm of reality of this universe ( presuming there are other realities outside our universe, but thats not the point ) Sorry if that comes across as me tryna kick your views in the balls, im not very good at wording my words politely.

I'm gonna get back to you on the 4 points you made in another topic because quite frankly i think i've typed to much... again, and spirituality is a gonna be another ton of typing

+ ive just spent all day at work and am in desperate need of some weedotherapy as its been DAYS without any :P
( i've come straight on here first cos i want a level head for this CRAZY stuff :) )





S. [Burned] Y. wrote:No, I didn't steal it, but it did take of some time to word it correctly. Go ahead and take it if you like.

Ty, its a mostly common conception, but yer its the wording i realy like. KUDOS! have a cookie!!! *munch munch* ... half a cookie.

Lionboy wrote:I've only seen a few religious topics, and though a few of them were trashed, they were never trashed for reasons pertaining to actual religious debate


I seem to remember loads, and even i started getting pissed of with them all, not because noone could ever agree, i think debate is one of the fundemental parts of progression, but because new threads where constantly being made about it but it was always the same points being reargued over and over.

oh and can anyone remind me how to put names in the quote boxes please, it might get confussing on who said what.


c that one looks more like a V>>>>> \/ as are those

thankyou! :D \!/ <<<<<thats an arrow
Last edited by Kex on Mon Aug 25, 2008 4:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby S. [Burned] Y. » Mon Aug 25, 2008 3:52 pm

quote="name"
For all we know humans are just weapons created by the world.

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Postby Elen Sila » Mon Aug 25, 2008 3:56 pm

Kez wrote:I seem to remember loads, and even i started getting pissed of with them all, not because noone could ever agree, i think debate is one of the fundemental parts of progression, but because new threads where constantly being made about it but it was always the same points being reargued over and over.


That must have been before I joined. Since late 2006, I have only seen maybe three religious topics and two of them got trashed for completely unrelated reasons.

oh and can anyone remind me how to put names in the quote boxes please, it might get confussing on who said what.


Code: Select all

[quote="Kez"]
DW wrote:anarch is more than slightly mental, he's completely fucking bonkers

Voly wrote:Do you reproduce by budding? Because if so, I'm so selling you to science.




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Postby dickwad » Mon Aug 25, 2008 8:17 pm

fixed the quotes.

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Postby Voly » Mon Aug 25, 2008 9:12 pm

I plenty believe in God.

I don't believe in religion, though. I mean, I believe it exists, but I don't believe God has anything to do with it. Many religions began as a way for the government to control the people, because the government isn't ALWAYS watching, but "God" is.

I don't think any religion has the right idea of what God is. God is incomprehensible, because God is God. I don't think God gives a shit what we do, we're creatures of free will. I think believing in SOMETHING is good enough. There will always be religions that conflict, but most religions, for the most part, teach good morals.

'Sall I gotta say.
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Postby daemon » Mon Aug 25, 2008 9:15 pm

I made a preacher mad one day. (Christian)

"If smoking pot is a sin, why is it here?"

"Sex before marriage can't be a sin, people have not always gotten married!?"

"Where did Cain and Seth's wives come from?"

Among other questions.
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Postby S. [Burned] Y. » Mon Aug 25, 2008 9:23 pm

I only lasted in Sunday church for seven hours.

Apparently no one likes the Virgin Mary getting called a whore.
Think about it. They only things she could've done it, while remain a virgin in the humans eyes, is to do the sheep or she did it with angels.
For all we know humans are just weapons created by the world.

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Postby Spaced Ape » Mon Aug 25, 2008 11:47 pm

You people talk about these things like they are some sort of great insight. I figured out the whole "being" and "religion" thing when I was 15.
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Or am I on the journey going to nowhere?
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Or am I slipping on the mold that slowly grows there?
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Postby Kex » Tue Aug 26, 2008 1:01 pm

Arditz wrote:just help your fellow man when he needs you, and he will help you when you need it. Live your life and in the end you'll see what happens. It's no use to worry about it now, you are still young so make sure you dont waste your life worrying about if God exists or not.


lol thanks ardz, but dont you worry! im not shaking in a corner like a junkie bitting my nails off and losing my hair thinking about it :P but yer i agree, its what i do try and do, just generaly get along with it.



Voluntarybadass wrote:There will always be religions that conflict, but most religions, for the most part, teach good morals.


They've conflicted with one another for a very long time, and its a depressing thought that there'l never be a way they can get on 100%, people are continually gonna kill each other over it.

kidna just makes me wish even more that we could just abolish all the pointless shit but keep the main principles.

They do have generaly good teachings, i must say that i believe in the teaching of jesus, wether he was made up 100%, or parts, but whatever, he had some good ideas.

Most religions tho teach the same morals, so what annoys me the most are the people who take certain bits and raise them higher, in order to give themselves, i dont know, something to do with their lives.
Like for instance, YOU CAN ONLY BELIEVE IN ONE GOD, even though most ideas of god come from the same sources, so it just goes round and round and etc etc.

I've seen people use the same copout over nd over again when it comes to questions like, 'well if its on the earth, then why did god put it there?' with dinosaurs and pot and stuff with the answer

'its a test by god'.



G!!***K"£N$KK KJANSKDA! KJFNAKSJFNAWD!!! SOOOO FRUSTRATING!






S. [ Burned ] Y. wrote: I only lasted in Sunday church for seven hours.

Apparently no one likes the Virgin Mary getting called a whore.
Think about it. They only things she could've done it, while remain a virgin in the humans eyes, is to do the sheep or she did it with angels.


ROFLOCOPTER burned :lol:

personally im still playing with the idea that jesus was sent back through time from us in the future because we realise he wasnt real but we needed his teachings or we would of all wiped ourselves out.

BUT MAYBE they just sent back someone to artificialy inseminate mary with some superprogrammedbaby to be jesus and say all those things, and could walk across water and shit. Sounds reasonable to me.

Or the entire story of jesus was some grotesque gene pool fuck up and all his teachings werent from god but his retarded sheep/human brain.
That works to.

Eschatos, you know the meaning of it all!?!?!? fukin TELL ME, or sell it on ebay, you'l make TRILLIONS!

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S. [Burned] Y.
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Postby S. [Burned] Y. » Tue Aug 26, 2008 1:43 pm

Religion isn't really something you can sell, although most try to in books music etc. Instead of focusing on what is right and true, find a religion you like and enjoy and go with it. Isn't that what life should be, enjoying what you have and what you do?
For all we know humans are just weapons created by the world.

Yonaka Sanryu - This thread makes the EMOs slit their wrists.

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Postby dickwad » Tue Aug 26, 2008 3:34 pm

fixed quotes.. again.


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