Haunting In Connecticut or Silent Hill?

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Postby Voly » Sun Sep 06, 2009 5:51 am

It's what I call a friend of mine who is named Danny. There was a story for it but I have long since forgotten how the story goes.
Astica wrote:That's probably the wankiest thing I've heard all day.

Elen wrote:If they were just bickering about politics, instead of indulging ERQ's passive-aggressive, self-aggrandizing fuckassery, then I wouldn't have a problem with it.

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Postby Spaced Ape » Sun Sep 06, 2009 8:21 am

There was an argument on biology in MD and I wasn't even a part of it?

Fine.

Frosty, Wayne, you're both right. But in a skewed way.

Granted, I didn't bother reading anything before the third page.
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Postby dickwad » Sun Sep 06, 2009 12:08 pm

i wondered when you were going to chime in.

what is the unskewed way of being right?

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Postby Voly » Sun Sep 06, 2009 5:18 pm

Probably something that will equally piss everyone off. That's generally how unskewed realities go.
Astica wrote:That's probably the wankiest thing I've heard all day.

Elen wrote:If they were just bickering about politics, instead of indulging ERQ's passive-aggressive, self-aggrandizing fuckassery, then I wouldn't have a problem with it.

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Postby Spaced Ape » Sun Sep 06, 2009 6:57 pm

dickwad wrote:i wondered when you were going to chime in.

what is the unskewed way of being right?


From what I understand it sort of all started here:

Frosty wrote:There is no such thing as altruism


Which IS sort of wrong, but not in the way you may think.

Altruism is an evolved trait, one that is truly instinctual in most pack animals including humans. We must care for each other out of complete necessity for each others well being.

Frosty is right in that the reason for altruism is ideally a selfish one, but you are right in that it goes beyond caring for someone only to the extent in which you know you can gain something back from them. This is assuredly not the case, as anyone who has given money to a homeless person (me included) knows they will more than likely not get something back.

Altruism is heightened in humans for the sole reason that there is so many of us and we come in contact with others like us non-stop every day.
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Postby Voly » Sun Sep 06, 2009 7:01 pm

I gave a couple bucks to a homeless guy last night. His name was Victor Johnson. I won't even see him again, and I don't expect anything back from him.

Esch, you really do win at this kind of discussion. lol
Astica wrote:That's probably the wankiest thing I've heard all day.

Elen wrote:If they were just bickering about politics, instead of indulging ERQ's passive-aggressive, self-aggrandizing fuckassery, then I wouldn't have a problem with it.

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Postby dickwad » Sun Sep 06, 2009 10:24 pm

Eschatos wrote:
Frosty wrote:There is no such thing as altruism


Which IS sort of wrong, but not in the way you may think.


i don't know what you think i may think, but your post echoes my viewpoint exactly, and i don't even know wtf altruism is except through the context you're using it.

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Postby Sol » Sun Sep 06, 2009 11:17 pm

I think altruism has a moderate toll on humans. I do think that we could adapt individually, but prefer not to. It's the animal side of us that tells us we should stand in packs. We last longer together, than alone (most likely).
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Postby Spaced Ape » Sun Sep 06, 2009 11:54 pm

I think you're talking out of your ass. What toll? What makes you say we could adapt individually? Everything we do is based off our "animal side" because we are animals. There is no "non-animal" side.

Anyway, sorry about that Wayne. As I said, I came into the discussion late and my own idea of what either of you were talking about was skewed. I had assumed you said altruism was based on more than biological necessity.

Altruism has a slightly different meaning in biology than every-day language. Like how the word "fitness" is slightly different.
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Postby Sol » Mon Sep 07, 2009 12:21 am

Eschatos wrote:I think you're talking out of your ass. What toll? What makes you say we could adapt individually? Everything we do is based off our "animal side" because we are animals. There is no "non-animal" side.


Altuism: Being in a "pack" has it's own downfalls; it's own price. Drama is a part of daily life for humans, along with all animals. There will be individuals in the group, you don't think fondly of.

Individuality: There are animals out there who adapt and survive better on their own. All they seek is finding a mate to create offspring and prey to consume. Humas can be on the move, and they don't need or require anyone else to sustain life. That's all I was stating.
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Postby Spaced Ape » Mon Sep 07, 2009 4:43 am

How is "drama" an equal to "solitude"?

Haven't you ever seen "Enemy Mine"?

Humans are not made for lives of solidarity. They are highly dependent on others for more than a decade to be able to survive, a characteristic that no creatures of solidarity share. In order to adapt, the changes the species of Homo sapiens would have to endure would probably drive them back to savagery and beyond.

If this were to happen it would be the first time ever a species reverted from pack into solitary creatures.
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Postby Sol » Mon Sep 07, 2009 3:25 pm

Eschatos wrote:How is "drama" an equal to "solitude"?

Haven't you ever seen "Enemy Mine"?

Humans are not made for lives of solidarity. They are highly dependent on others for more than a decade to be able to survive, a characteristic that no creatures of solidarity share. In order to adapt, the changes the species of Homo sapiens would have to endure would probably drive them back to savagery and beyond.

If this were to happen it would be the first time ever a species reverted from pack into solitary creatures.


I never said soitude and drama were equals. Humans may not be made for lives of solidarity, but they can surely survive on their own. That's all I'm saying. Savagery or not, it's progress for survivial. Modern technology is not needed for survival. Instinct kicks in when a negative event occurs. Animals have the need to survive, through even the worst of times. Even if that means being alone. There have bee individuals who have lived through the harshest of living conditions (Siberia).
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Postby ƒrosty » Mon Sep 07, 2009 5:18 pm

Eschatos wrote:This is assuredly not the case, as anyone who has given money to a homeless person (me included) knows they will more than likely not get something back.

You get a warm fuzzy feeling or a sense of justification or being just.

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Postby Voly » Mon Sep 07, 2009 5:21 pm

Why do you feel that way?
Astica wrote:That's probably the wankiest thing I've heard all day.

Elen wrote:If they were just bickering about politics, instead of indulging ERQ's passive-aggressive, self-aggrandizing fuckassery, then I wouldn't have a problem with it.

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Postby Guitar_clock » Mon Sep 07, 2009 8:42 pm


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Postby ƒrosty » Mon Sep 07, 2009 10:42 pm

Voly wrote:Why do you feel that way?

I sat down and thought about it and I can see no alternative. Altruism could technically be possible with the inclusion if telepathy or a hive mind. It's all just because of the separation of consciousnesses.
Like I mentioned before, this does not cause me to hate mankind or be apathetic in my social encounters. I continue as anyone would sans my conclusion.

G_C wrote:You feel happy that you helped him. But the action wasn't originally motivated by your own self-interest of wanting to feel good, it was motivated by wanting to help the kid.

I really don't think so; if there were a person who would not get any pleasure from helping the kid, they wouldn't do it. A sociopath wouldn't lift a finger because s/he isn't selfish in the appropriate circumstance to do so.

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Postby Spaced Ape » Mon Sep 07, 2009 11:10 pm

Frosty wrote:
Eschatos wrote:This is assuredly not the case, as anyone who has given money to a homeless person (me included) knows they will more than likely not get something back.

You get a warm fuzzy feeling or a sense of justification or being just.


I meant you don't get any sort of physical thing back. I believe, as do you, that altruism IS completely for selfish purposes, my only point being that humans don't usually realize why they do "good" things, only that they know what they are doing is supposedly "good".

This is where I believe the idea or source of human morality truly comes from. That which could be potentially negative to myself is evil, that which is potentially positive for myself is good.
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Postby Guitar_clock » Mon Sep 07, 2009 11:30 pm

Frosty wrote:
G_C wrote:You feel happy that you helped him. But the action wasn't originally motivated by your own self-interest of wanting to feel good, it was motivated by wanting to help the kid.

I really don't think so; if there were a person who would not get any pleasure from helping the kid, they wouldn't do it. A sociopath wouldn't lift a finger because s/he isn't selfish in the appropriate circumstance to do so.

So what of the argument for the greater good¿ Say if I help someone out and it's not just because I'm trying to get a fuzzy feeling inside but rather because it's what's best for my society's future¿ How is that being completely selfish¿

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Postby Voly » Mon Sep 07, 2009 11:31 pm

Or posterity.
Astica wrote:That's probably the wankiest thing I've heard all day.

Elen wrote:If they were just bickering about politics, instead of indulging ERQ's passive-aggressive, self-aggrandizing fuckassery, then I wouldn't have a problem with it.

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Postby Sol » Tue Sep 08, 2009 12:15 am

I find nothing wrong in donating to the poor. It benefits you later, whether you believe it or not. It will either boost your self-esteem/confidence or you will recieve objects in the future. Karma is a key factor in this.
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Postby ƒrosty » Tue Sep 08, 2009 12:20 am

G_C wrote:How is that being completely selfish¿

Like I said: a sense of justification or being just; the feeling of being in the right is inexorably desirable to some.

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Postby Guitar_clock » Tue Sep 08, 2009 1:13 am

What of survivor's guilt¿ What if you have the opportunity to save somebody from getting hit by a bus, but aren't bold enough to push them out of the way lest you yourself get killed¿ Why ought you feel guilty if indeed you do¿

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Postby Spaced Ape » Tue Sep 08, 2009 1:26 am

Because they innately fear the repercussions one may face when given the opportunity to save another but didn't. Lets say it was a child. Do you think the parents are going to understand the 'me v.s. them' argument?
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Postby Guitar_clock » Tue Sep 08, 2009 1:32 am

Repercussions¿ Fine then. Let's say this person is a homeless man and nobody notices that he had an opportunity to save someone but didn't take it, and that he doesn't tell his homeless buddies or have any family, but is still guilty. There's something here you guys are missing.

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Postby Spaced Ape » Tue Sep 08, 2009 1:36 am

It doesn't matter. It's not like you know for sure nobody will know him or miss him. And my whole point is that this happens innately, it's all instinctual.

But go ahead Mr. Philosophy, educate us.
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