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Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 11:55 pm
by Azgarth
please do. i'm interested in hearing why it is anything but the choice of something other than your current life. that's not being a pussy, that's making a choice based on what you want as opposed to going "ooh i'm tough because i choose to stay alive".

Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 12:36 am
by Chichevache
You could just as easily make the argument that life is for pussies who are afraid to move on, Zyn.

Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 4:30 pm
by dot.
I disagree, too. I mean, it can be a coward's way out, but that just depends on the situation.

I don't think I could ever kill myself. I'm too afraid to do it. I'm afraid that I'd fuck it up and end up as a veggie or in a mental institution. I'm afraid of what comes after death. I'm afraid of leaving Jimi without a mother, or worse, leaving her to a stepmother like mine was.

There have been many brave suicides.

Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 9:50 pm
by Guitar_clock
I just had a thought.

Life is a coward's way out.

Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 11:11 pm
by Azgarth
to postpone, depending on your view on death, yeah. though i doubt you're half as serious with your comment as i am with mine.

Posted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 3:18 am
by Voly
Most suicides are anything but brave or honorable as far as I'm concerned, although there are exceptions. The big picture may disagree, but I've never been much of a big picture guy.

Posted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 4:31 am
by S. [Burned] Y.

Posted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 11:02 am
by Azgarth
burned, what the hell was that?

Posted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 1:45 pm
by ardizt
Newgrounds people..I never got those people.

Posted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 2:36 pm
by HeRetiK
Yay for Happy Harry Toons :D

@Avatar Depression: What the fuck. That's just sad. I mean it is a cool planet. But there a lot of beautiful places all around the world as well.

Posted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 4:56 pm
by Zyn
@ Az: It's a personal view of mine that any problem can be solved if the right steps are taken. Generally, people who suicide are stuck in a problem and are too afraid/think they are unable to move past it. I can't give specific examples, sorry, because I can't think of any right now. However, I also cannot find any point where there are too many problems for a person and suicide is a viable option. Recently, I've had the discussion with someone over this topic and they did raise the point that I subconsciously assume everyone has the emotional ability to accept trouble and move past it. As far as I'm concerned, there is not a point where the human, if they are willing to try, cannot move forward through trouble. The human is simply too adaptive. However, the point where they give up trying is where they are weak (aka pussies). The suicide itself is merely the manifestation of their willpower failing.


@Voly: I can only really think of a suicide as honorable if it were, for example, a military general killing himself instead of being tortured as not to accidentally reveal information.

Posted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 6:42 pm
by Azgarth
@ Az: It's a personal view of mine that any problem can be solved if the right steps are taken.

strongly disagree. how about someone who's life was running, lost his legs up to his upper legs in a carcrash?
someone with clinical depression, for whom the current medicine do not work?
a schizophrenic for whom the meds don't work?
someone who's in such a financial pit that she can't get out of it anymore?
someone who's in pain for all of his life, and will be for the rest of it as well?
someone who's only got 6 months to live, all six with pain?

Generally, people who suicide are stuck in a problem and are too afraid/think they are unable to move past it.

plenty of people that commit suicide, yeah. not nearly all.
and who says that the situation they think they can't move past is able to be resolved? see above for a few examples.

However, I also cannot find any point where there are too many problems for a person and suicide is a viable option.

example of someone i know:
strong schizophrenic, ex-brawler living on state money, has a rap sheet. severly depressed. meds don't work nearly enough. only lives for his family, those he cares about. completely alienated from anyone else but them. recently his wife wanted a divorce. his kids will almost never meet him anymore.
i wouldn't be surprised if during a fit of schiz or stronger depression he offed himself, and wouldn't blame him if he did. he's thinking about it.


As far as I'm concerned, there is not a point where the human, if they are willing to try, cannot move forward through trouble.

A human, maybe, THE human, no.
there's plenty of things a lot of people can't move past. not being able to do so isn't weakness the way you normally view it. it's just incapability.

Posted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 9:19 pm
by Zyn
strongly disagree. how about someone who's life was running, lost his legs up to his upper legs in a carcrash? someone with clinical depression, for whom the current medicine do not work?
a schizophrenic for whom the meds don't work?
someone who's in such a financial pit that she can't get out of it anymore?
someone who's in pain for all of his life, and will be for the rest of it as well?
someone who's only got 6 months to live, all six with pain?


Terrible situations, but not unable to be overcome.
Prosthetics
There are other ways to treat depression such as psychotherapy and natural herbology.
I don't know anything about schiz so I can't answer that with an educated opinion ^.^;
That seems, to me, to be mostly their own fault. Should've been stopped long ago. If it wasn't their fault, then I'd need to know the circumstances.
That's a case where I believe suicide is an option. Humanly euthanizing should be legal for terminally ill victims.
See above.

plenty of people that commit suicide, yeah. not nearly all.
and who says that the situation they think they can't move past is able to be resolved? see above for a few examples.


Generally, meaning I'll give the exception of a few cases.




example of someone i know:
strong schizophrenic, ex-brawler living on state money, has a rap sheet. severly depressed. meds don't work nearly enough. only lives for his family, those he cares about. completely alienated from anyone else but them. recently his wife wanted a divorce. his kids will almost never meet him anymore.
i wouldn't be surprised if during a fit of schiz or stronger depression he offed himself, and wouldn't blame him if he did. he's thinking about it.


It's partially a case where the cause of the divorce and such and the rap sheet would need to be debated, not his current state. Again, I know nearly nothing about schitz, and the depression, see above.

A human, maybe, THE human, no.
there's plenty of things a lot of people can't move past. not being able to do so isn't weakness the way you normally view it. it's just incapability.


I get what you're saying here, the human isn't perfect and most of flaws of inability. I view anything deviating from the highest standard as a weakness, though. That's just my denotation of it.

Posted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 10:51 pm
by Azgarth
Terrible situations, but not unable to be overcome.
Prosthetics
There are other ways to treat depression such as psychotherapy and natural herbology.
I don't know anything about schiz so I can't answer that with an educated opinion ^.^;
That seems, to me, to be mostly their own fault. Should've been stopped long ago. If it wasn't their fault, then I'd need to know the circumstances.
That's a case where I believe suicide is an option. Humanly euthanizing should be legal for terminally ill victims.
See above.

prosthetics, sure. not if you've lost the whole of your legs, not running at least, especially not like you used to.
which are usually even less effective. lets rephrase then "no currently known or available way to balance it, let alone to get rid of it.
fair enough, it's hell.
bad partner who got you in debt is a possibility. don't matter how they got there though, matters how they can get out, and what to do if they can't.
the bottom of those two is terminal, the upper isn't, just in permanent pain. you still think that's a legit reason for suicide?

It's partially a case where the cause of the divorce and such and the rap sheet would need to be debated, not his current state. Again, I know nearly nothing about schitz, and the depression, see above.

rap sheet et all don't matter much, just means he's been chewed up in almost any way possible by the gov't, psych wards, prisons, stuff like that. stuff he did during a psychosis mostly.

I get what you're saying here, the human isn't perfect and most of flaws of inability. I view anything deviating from the highest standard as a weakness, though. That's just my denotation of it.

you view more than roughly 1/6,796,700,000th of humans as untermensch?

Posted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 11:23 pm
by Zyn
prosthetics, sure. not if you've lost the whole of your legs, not running at least, especially not like you used to.
which are usually even less effective. lets rephrase then "no currently known or available way to balance it, let alone to get rid of it.
fair enough, it's hell.
bad partner who got you in debt is a possibility. don't matter how they got there though, matters how they can get out, and what to do if they can't.
the bottom of those two is terminal, the upper isn't, just in permanent pain. you still think that's a legit reason for suicide?


Admittedly, prosthesis would be awkward, but that's where the perseverance and ability to overcome come into play.
If there is absolutely no way to help it in human's ability, I place that in the same category as permanent pain, in an emotional/social sense.
Well, how they got there does matter. Because they may have already passed all the points where they could successfully correct the problem and ignored them, thus making it as much self-inflicted as anything else. It'll take extreme measures, but it's still correctable.
If you are in pain for the remainder of your life so that life can no longer offer any comfort or enjoyment, yes, I believe this to a good reason for a medicinal, prepared suicide.

rap sheet et all don't matter much, just means he's been chewed up in almost any way possible by the gov't, psych wards, prisons, stuff like that. stuff he did during a psychosis mostly.


So, essentially, the basis of all his troubles is his schitz/depression? Because, if such, I can't really argue it. Uninformed, after all. I'll look into schizophrenia and learn what I can, though, over the next few days.

you view more than roughly 1/6,796,700,000th of humans as untermensch?


Untermensch? I don't know that word. I'm assuming it means weak or imperfect or such? If so, actually, I view all of them as such. No human is perfect, thus every human has point in which they are weak, yea?

Posted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 11:55 pm
by Azgarth
Well, how they got there does matter. Because they may have already passed all the points where they could successfully correct the problem and ignored them, thus making it as much self-inflicted as anything else. It'll take extreme measures, but it's still correctable.

yes, but seeing as they ARE in that state, it's live like that or die. you think people like that would be cowards to die? that they shouldn't be allowed to?

If you are in pain for the remainder of your life so that life can no longer offer any comfort or enjoyment, yes, I believe this to a good reason for a medicinal, prepared suicide.

and what if there's no assisted suicide possible?

So, essentially, the basis of all his troubles is his schitz/depression? Because, if such, I can't really argue it. Uninformed, after all. I'll look into schizophrenia and learn what I can, though, over the next few days.

those are bad, but the rest is to point out that not only is his mind against him, his surroundings are crap as well. all heh as pretty much is his computer.

Untermensch? I don't know that word. I'm assuming it means weak or imperfect or such? If so, actually, I view all of them as such. No human is perfect, thus every human has point in which they are weak, yea?


"Untermensch (German for under man, sub-man, sub-human; plural: Untermenschen) is a term from Nazi racial ideology used to describe "inferior people"

as for every human being being weak at one thing or another, definitely agreed. also in part because being strong in some things automatically make you weak in others.

Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 1:19 am
by Ay-Ze
How about we just say suicide is bad, with exceptions.

Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 1:48 am
by Azgarth
no. we are having a nice conversation, join in if you want, but simplification and skipping to conclusions is boring.

Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 1:56 am
by dickwad
so is this conversation. how many times has this subject been brough up on md? srsly.

but then again, i can just ignore this topic. as you were.

Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 2:01 am
by Voly
This is probably more common than the whole "guns aren't honorable" debate, which I probably just started, too.

Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 9:04 am
by Chichevache
Zynathias wrote:No human is perfect


Jesus was.

Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 12:39 pm
by ardizt
His beard only was divine

Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 3:14 pm
by Voly
Beards in general are divine. I wish I could grow one. I think I'm going to use miracle grow on my chin. Random assorted hairs aren't doing the fuckin' job anymore.

Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 3:46 pm
by Zyn
yes, but seeing as they ARE in that state, it's live like that or die. you think people like that would be cowards to die? that they shouldn't be allowed to?


They already took the cowardly route by not doing what's necessary, if they kill themself, it's only a reaffirmation. BTW, @ "they shouldn't be allowed to?" I'm not saying that we can keep people from suicide, I'm just saying they're showing a weakness of mind/will/spirit/whatever to do it.

As for living like that, as I said, there are extreme measures than can be taken to help.

and what if there's no assisted suicide possible?
'

How so?
They should still be able to end their life if their life is nothing more than an amalgam of pain and suffering with no hope of getting better. If there's a way to get better, than suicide ought not be an option.

those are bad, but the rest is to point out that not only is his mind against him, his surroundings are crap as well. all heh as pretty much is his computer.


That's a shitty bit of luck. I can argue his general points, though, that institutions and such may provide some comfort, however, not knowing his life to the very specifics, anything else I can say would be speculation.

as for every human being being weak at one thing or another, definitely agreed. also in part because being strong in some things automatically make you weak in others.


Yup. Though my definition of strong means they are near the top capacity of whatever they are doing.

AnUnivitedGuest wrote:
Zynathias wrote: No human is perfect


Jesus was


I'm tempted to argue this, but I've learned how religious debates work here.

Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 4:03 pm
by Azgarth
How so?
They should still be able to end their life if their life is nothing more than an amalgam of pain and suffering with no hope of getting better. If there's a way to get better, than suicide ought not be an option.

well, speaking from holland, we have an euthanasia declaration we can take, stating when we want to have it ended. however, pretty much no doctor is willing to be taken up on it. technically you should be able to be euthanized in specific situations, but in practicality you can't. people won't help you, so no assisted suicide.

hat institutions and such may provide some comfort

having been in such institutes for those i care about, and being researched by psychiatrists and psychologists years ago, i can tell you that if you truly are in such a bad state, institutions do NOT provide comfort.

Yup. Though my definition of strong means they are near the top capacity of whatever they are doing.

so near max of what that specific PERSON can do? of what the best imaginary human can do?

They already took the cowardly route by not doing what's necessary, if they kill themself, it's only a reaffirmation. BTW, @ "they shouldn't be allowed to?" I'm not saying that we can keep people from suicide, I'm just saying they're showing a weakness of mind/will/spirit/whatever to do it.

it's the action and motive in the circumstance that would warrant if it would be weak or not, i'd say. not the history. weakness can have been in past events, but that does not colour present ones.

As for living like that, as I said, there are extreme measures than can be taken to help.

i know people like that, having to live on 5 bucks a week because of debts someone else made, debts that keep on going 'till they're repaid, and can't ever be repaid in our lifetime.